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PostSubject: Zimbabwe   Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:06 pm

Discuss the ongoing saga in Zimbabwe

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:11 pm

Hopeless, what ever happens the Mugabe thugs will still continue their violence. has he really got any incentive to stop it?

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:18 am

Well, this is always an interesting one really. I posted this spiel on Scuzz and I feel pretty much the same now:

What do you guys reckon? It's extremely sad what has happened to Mugabe - a leader that showed such strength in his own land's independence, is now resorting to possibly killing his opponants to ensure he has total control. The only opposition that he's had to really take note of in recent years has finally given up, stating that "Mugabe wants a war and we are not willing to fight".

Inflation is now believed to be spiralling higher and higher, estimated to be at around 2,000,000%. But notice that in this particular troubled country, the US hasn't gone gung-ho and dived straight in. I find that both amusing and a tell-tale sign of the real truths for the invasion of Iraq. Zimbabwe is in far more of a volatile situation, if we're honest, than Iraq has ever been. Yet, the US and the UK go and invade Iraq. Hmm...

In Zimbabwe, members of the oppositions have claimed to be raped, tortured and even some members murdered at the hands of young Zanu-PF Militia. Hussein was suspected of torturing some opposition, but things were prosperous. The economy was fairly strong, women were at their free-est in just about any middle-eastern state.

The difference? There's no doubt in my mind that oil made the difference here. Why invade Iraq and not Zimbabwe? Zimbabwe has nothing that we can steal. Iraq sure did. Well, thank you America! Now, in Iraq, women are being forced back into a much stronger state of religious conservatism by the militias that are now able to roam without the strong grip of Saddam Hussein. Children are dying left, right and centre. The whole country is on the verge of a civil war.

Of course, invasion is not, nor will it ever be, the answer. We shouldn't have invaded Iraq, nor should we even consider invading Zimbabwe. A tyrant he may be, but Mugabe got one thing right. After calls from Gordon Brown that Zimbabwe should sort itself out and that Mugabe should give in to the opposition, he replied by saying that Brown was nothing more than a speck. Thank you for putting him in his place Mr Mugabe. Surely he could have added the same of George Bush? It's about time Britain lifted the red haze of colonial losses from Africa and finally start to treat each country as a country, not as a lost chunk of Empire.

Of course, I'm not in support of Mugabe. Don't get me wrong. He was a good ruler to begin with (any supporters of US and our UK government would no doubt say the same of Saddam Hussein unless they were being stupid, moronic hypocrits) but he has fallen from grace. Killing opponants is not the answer. He could have bowed out, gracefully, with age and accepted that he did a whole lot of good for his beloved homeland. Instead, he's soured and the image of his government has become a scapegoat for dictatorships that went so badly wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:52 am

Indeed, thats the problem, we can't do anything because after we remove him, then what? its like we're seeing in Iraq. Its a case of 'the better the devil you know'.

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:50 am

Indeed. Plus, he's not exactly a young leader. How long will he last? Once he's gone, the strength of the Zanu-PF may weaken just enough for opposition parties to take a stronghold.

Besides, we ought to give Mugabe a little bit of credit. He did, initially, totally free an African country from British Tyranny and it's just good to see that. It's just a shame he's fallen from grace...

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:20 pm

Well they always start off so brightly, even Hitler did. as for the opposition, corrupt warlords are more likely to make it a case of 'same old' and even if the MDC did get their chance, and even considering they'll probably be better, they'll hardly be clean and honest, you don't survive in africa like that.

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:27 am

Hitler never started brightly ¬.¬ Honestly - all of that garbage about him saving the economy is just rubbish. He just happened to come into power when the effects of the Depression were already wearing off - just look at all of the other countries that were in debt around the world!

But I know what you mean about the MDC ^^ At the end of the day, all they stand for is Democracy. People can still do disgusting things with democracy... Just take a look at the Mullahs in Iran... Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:57 am

I wasn't referring to that, I meant order (there had been a few years of chaos), the victory over the threat of communism, the restoration of German pride and position. yes not all were good things for the world, but for a german... the problem is not that he didn't do anything good, but that there was such a high price. The economy was indeed improving, and nearly lost him power. Sometimes bitter medicine is the only thing that works, it often does in these situations, shame what it develops into though. Anyway back to Zimbabwe, a state that is technically a democracy can still be corrupt.

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:30 pm

Communism isn't a threat Sad It's very seriously the only realsitic way in stopping the world from starving itself...

Plus, Germany wasn't quite as chaotic as Hitler painted it to be - in reality, things were getting much better under Gustav Stresseman, but on his death, Htler leaped in and pointed out all of the flaws that were re-emerging. Really, any leader could have sorted it out, but becayse of Germany's Proportional Representation system, no-one could win a majority, so governments only last a few months at a time. People were sick of Democracy and both the Communist and Nazi Parties became the two biggest in Germany. The Nazis only won really because they killed/critically injured communist leaders/supporters and played the Nationalism card... ¬.¬

But that's definitely true about the corruption... It's just so sad... But, it highlights the ever present problem with democracy - people will always vote for dictators...

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:22 pm

He knows the likes of china will support him in the face of sanctions, so any deal will be on his own terms. The talks will probably be just for show as he had no intention of letting anyone else anywhere near power and he has the muscle to keep things that way. If he does make an agreement it'll be one where he still holds the best cards.

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:05 am

Definitely - all of the "peace talk" business was just a way for him to lower the guards of the opposition so that they'd be weaker for him to penetrate. The MDC was already beginning to faction off before this whole business and now, the offshoot is threatening to draw more away and split the party further. We've got to admit - Mr Mugabe is a clever man...

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:38 am

I suppose, we'll give him that. I can't see him below ground fast enough however, whatever happens it'll make an interesting story to follow, from a distance anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:11 am

Indeed ^^ It's a shame for the Zimbabweans, but at the end of the day, it's not a matter for us to decide.

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:13 am

Unfortunately, I know the west is often criticized for trying to be the worlds policeman but sometimes the situation could do with one.

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:05 am

And I think that no country could do it better than Russia! Excited/Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:06 am

normally I'd say you're view is biased, but honestly anyone but the americans would do. even the heavy handed russians

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:12 am

Hurray! cheers

But I know what you mean - they do tend to go rather full-throttle into things... XD But as you said, they'd be much preferable to the Americans!

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:14 am

and the french as well, we'd probably be too poorly lead, supplied, and infoed. which leaves the russians and germans.

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:15 am

Hmm.. that's true, although I dislike Angela Merkel... She's a little too far to the right for my taste...

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:17 am

she would be

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:19 am

Naturally. But Russia leader's a little closer to the left, despite the ludicrous privatisation that went on the ninties... Stupid Stalin... He ruined Communism!

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:22 am

erm, how do you mean? I know he wasn't very good ( hence 'destalinization') but me ensure its survival for decades didn't he? in the face of hitler.

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:24 am

I reckon that, should he not have gone all psychopathic, Trotsky and Lenin (the two masterminds of the Russian Revolution) would have acheived a much better relation with the West, thus stopped Communism from looking like a world evil and allowed it to spread more around the world. Stalin made Communism into a world evil with his oppressive tactics, irrational and violent tendancies and his demented ways of treating opposition. He focused a little too much on enforcing law rather than actually implementing the great ideas of Trotsky and Lenin...

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:27 am

I agree, hardly helps you does it?

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PostSubject: Re: Zimbabwe   Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:28 am

Not particularly Sad

The man was actually schizophrenic and paranoid, so it lead to many an irrational decision and virtually resulted in his death XD Poor Trotsky...

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